Tuesday, August 2
Chat Transcript: "Focus on Daytrading"
Thanks to everyone who took the time to join our "Focus on Daytrading" chat. Here's the complete transcript for those who couldn't make it.
All of the charts featured are 15-minute, color-coded candlestick charts. Up bars are green, Down bars are red, Inside bars are blue, and Outside bars are black. The little gray diamonds above the bars mark 20-bar highs, and the little blue sevens mark the narrowest range bar out of the last seven bars.
Posted on August 2, 2005 at 8:00, GMT
| edge | Hi Chairman |
| Zoomie | hi all |
| keke | good afternoon everyone |
| edge | Howdy |
| nick | hi . my first time here |
| keke | hey TM |
| TraderMike | sup |
| CMaoxian | welcome nick |
| CMaoxian | keke, where is it the afternoon? |
| nick | tx CM |
| keke | doing my scans for tommorow, how bout you all |
| edge | Hi TraderMike "ex PB Developer" |
| TraderMike | LOL.. hi Edge |
| TraderMike | I'm ripping CDs like a mad man |
| keke | TM hows daytrading treating you? |
| TraderMike | very well so far |
| keke | good to hear |
| TraderMike | do you daytrade? |
| keke | a little bit |
| keke | just if i see something that looks really good |
| CMaoxian | how much is a 60gig iPod, mike? |
| TraderMike | 1 billion dollars! |
| CMaoxian | ouch |
| TraderMike | $385 |
| CMaoxian | still ouch ;-) |
| TraderMike | LOL |
| keke | how many you expecting cm? |
| CMaoxian | i think we're almost all here now, keke |
| keke | K |
| keke | CM do you daytrade at all? |
| CMaoxian | not at the moment, keke, that's why we're using mike's trades as examples |
| keke | ok |
| keke | does anyone make money off their blogs? |
| CMaoxian | we're just going to do a refresher course on the old Dummy Trading principles this evening |
| CMaoxian | yes, keke, DailyKos makes a ton |
| TraderMike | I make a little keke |
| TraderMike | Instapundit does well too |
| TraderMike | CM, is it possible to get sounds in this chat app? |
| CMaoxian | there is mike, but admin shut them off to keep people from fooling |
| keke | Kos has tons of readers i believe, all those political blogs have cultlike followings lol |
| CMaoxian | yes, the political blogs have huge followings of political nerds, you remember those dorks in high school? |
| keke | lol CM, yep |
| CMaoxian | mike makes $385 a day |
| TraderMike | oh |
| keke | wow |
| TraderMike | I wish |
| test | hello? |
| TraderMike | hello test |
| keke | to be honest, i have never clicked a google ad |
| keke | on a blog |
| CMaoxian | keke, i encourage you to step out to the front page and start exercising your mouse finger |
| scoot | hi guys |
| CMaoxian | hi scoot |
| chud | man i'm gonna start me one of them blogs. i want an ipod too. |
| CMaoxian | i guess we'll start out with mike's AMZN trade |
| CMaoxian |  |
| james | lol - i'm carrying a tiny amount short tonight |
| CMaoxian | AMZN jumped on earnings on the 27th i believe |
| CMaoxian | and mike played it on the 28th, which makes it a "next day" play in my book |
| CMaoxian | i'm not a fan of next day plays, i prefer to deal with truly unusual suspects |
| TraderMike | I couldn't resist jumping on that... it was calling me |
| CMaoxian | by unusual suspect i mean a stock that is experiencing abnormal trading activity, which you can measure by looking at volume or number of trades, etc. |
| TraderMike | plus I wanted to get my iPod $ back from them! |
| CMaoxian | you bought it from AMZN? |
| TraderMike | yep |
| CMaoxian | do they have the best prices? |
| TraderMike | yeah, and no sales tax |
| james | thats always nice |
| scoot | good strategy |
| CMaoxian | how much was shipping? |
| TraderMike | zero |
| CMaoxian | ah, the super saver schtick? |
| TraderMike | you know it |
| CMaoxian | i wait till after 10 o'clock to make trades and i think mike does too |
| CMaoxian | so that second bar, the inside bar, i wouldn't look to execute against |
| TraderMike | I wait until after 10:15 |
| Miggs | After the initial pop in price and volume, do you look for continued volume or just the down bar? |
| CMaoxian | all inside bars are blue on my color-coded charts, down bars are red |
| TraderMike | that 10:00 candle can be dangerous |
| jfra | CM, I see the AMZN low for that day on the open around 43.50, how do u get only .25 risk? |
| chud | then you could have entered after the 2nd bar too? it's inside. |
| CMaoxian | i look for the pace to stay pretty high, miggs |
| chud | jfra - use the low of the down bar |
| CMaoxian | hi jfra, you put the stop below the low of the bar you entered above |
| CMaoxian | or below a recent swing low if you're comfortable doing that |
| TraderMike | CM, do you have moving averages on your charts when you're trading? |
| jfra | it's hard for me to tell which bar trade was executed off of.. |
| makinconfetti | hello everyone |
| CMaoxian | yes mike, i often put a 20-period exp. moving average up |
| TraderMike | ok |
| CMaoxian | hi makin |
| keke | so are you looking at the 15 minute |
| CMaoxian | yes, keke |
| chud | cm: how do you use the 20-ema? |
| CMaoxian | the red bar that the little arrow is pointing at, jfra |
| jfra | isn't that the down bar? |
| CMaoxian | chud, i just like to see that price is above it |
| CMaoxian | yes, that's a down bar |
| CMaoxian | the inside bar i was talking about jfra was the 9:45 bar, sorry to confuse |
| jfra | was trade execute on that bar or next candle? |
| keke | TM what indicators do you follow during the daytrading day |
| jfra | gotcha |
| CMaoxian | the trade was executed above that down bar |
| TraderMike | I watch the A/D line, TICK, TRIN and the trend of the Nasdaq |
| james | i would've had a hard time holding on after the 9th bar from the bar that initiated the trade |
| makinconfetti | CM, forgive me for asking a question that may have been asked already. Are you a long term investor at this point ? No more day trading or swing trading ? |
| keke | TM..you do not follow any indicators on the direct stock? |
| CMaoxian | makin, i plan to start day trading again at the end of this year, but i am on china-acclimation hiatus now |
| chud | if you entered as price moved above the 2nd bar it would be after 10:00. i don't see why you wouldn't take that entry. |
| scoot | yes james me too |
| TraderMike | only a 10 and 20 EMA |
| CMaoxian | it's too early, chud |
| keke | and do you follow those for crossovers or just to see them in relation to price. |
| TraderMike | James, that's where taking partial profits helps |
| makinconfetti | CM, do you have a long term portfolio - like in your IRA ? |
| TraderMike | just in relation to price -- I want the 10 above the 20 for longs & the opposite for shorts |
| james | partial? man - i usually am an all or nothing trader - its so hard to change - but i hear ya |
| envis | Mike, what is the A/D line? |
| keke | TM how many screens do you usually have running? |
| chud | Mike, when you talk about 3R are you saying it would've been 3R if held to the end of day? or 3R even with scaling out? |
| CMaoxian | i see what you're saying james and scoot, but i like to stop watching the chart once the trade is made and just close it EOD |
| TraderMike | CM rolls like that too.... I need to take my little chips when i can |
| CMaoxian | yes makin, i have a long-term portfolio |
| makinconfetti | That's the portfolio I'd like to see |
| CMaoxian | well, there's a lot of busted junk in there, makin, plus some good stuff ;-) |
| TraderMike | Envis, the Advance/Decline line... number of advancing stocks vs. num of decliners |
| makinconfetti | Livermore always said the real money was in the sitting |
| james | word up makin |
| CMaoxian | he was right, makin |
| pedro | cm & tm do you use an opening range in this trade to determine entry? |
| TraderMike | Chud, it was 3R even with scaling out |
| CMaoxian | remember that livermore shot himself in the head in the end |
| makinconfetti | I have so many good stocks that I no longer own that have gone up 30-75X in the last 15 years |
| CMaoxian | no pedro, i don't |
| james | and went bust 3 or 4 times |
| makinconfetti | or less time |
| Zoomie | we don't know that he was aiming for his head though |
| CMaoxian | yes makin, it pays to just Forget About It |
| TraderMike | Pedro, no I didn't use an opening range |
| makinconfetti | so what's your point CM, we're all destined for the poor house ? |
| james | thats what i did with TOL on thurs - planned to hold it overnight - but it just kept ramping |
| jfra | in these mkts...yes.. |
| james | and i bailed |
| pedro | livermore could not find the new keys when they changed the locks |
| CMaoxian | the point is, don't get obsessed with the little squiggly lines, makin |
| chud | chairman, if you buy and hold and daytrade, what time frame do you use fuzzy on? |
| chud | or is fuzzy a research project and not used in practice? |
| makinconfetti | I owned TECH back in mid 90 at an adjusted price of .63. Currently around 49 or 50 i think |
| jfra | AMZN trade... |
| Jim | I was dropped out when I tried to open the amzn link. I lost all the important part as how to make entry |
| CMaoxian | both chud, but the fuzz is more useful for the short-term stuff |
| makinconfetti | I think Techne is still a decent buy, that's what is crazy |
| CMaoxian | Fuzzy is used in practice |
| chud | how do you determine what market to use fuzz in? |
| CMaoxian | hi Jim, don't worry we have plenty more to talk about and you can always review the transcript |
| Jim | thanks CM |
| CMaoxian | i apply the fuzz to all markets (this Fuzzy talk is going to confuse people who are here for the Dummy stuff) |
| Zoomie | would you ever execute after just 2- 15 min candles CM? |
| CMaoxian | no zoomie |
| CMaoxian | next up is SBUX |
| CMaoxian |  |
| chud | i'll save my fuzzy questions for the fuzzy chat i guess then |
| CMaoxian | yes chud, thx |
| CMaoxian | why did SBUX pop like that, mike? |
| TraderMike | a true dummy trade |
| TraderMike | I think it was earnings |
| james | i dont know - looked like a gap closer |
| jfra | ..hedge fund shenanigans |
| CMaoxian | you see the first two elements, unusual volume and price action |
| TraderMike | yeah, it was earnings |
| chud | looks like somebody found out about 15 min before the prev. close |
| CMaoxian | that may just be my screwy data, chud |
| keke | TM-sorry bout this, i lost my connection...how many monitors do you have running when your trading |
| james | i hate trading with the gap - i usually try to fade - and 9 times out of 10 - i stay away from gappers |
| chud | i like using 15 monitors when i'm using 15 min. charts |
| CMaoxian | it depends on how badly my tan needs a refresher, keke |
| TraderMike | I have two on my desktop computer and I have a laptop.... I'm seriously considering adding a third to the desktop |
| CMaoxian | try to resist that very human urge to fade these, james |
| james | i usually do |
| jfra | CM, what about SBUX trade? |
| CMaoxian | well entering above that 4th down bar looked ok at first, but then crunch, good thing you ALWAYS have a protective stop in place |
| TraderMike | indeed |
| makinconfetti | CM, what percentage of your readers do you think can make a living from day trading, swing trading, (essentially short term trading) ? |
| jfra | where was stop? |
| TraderMike | mine was under the previous candle |
| CMaoxian | well i have 12 readers, makin, and they're all old wise men (long-term investors), so the answer is probably none |
| jfra | the little green spinning top? |
| chud | you guys buy 1 cent above candles and put stop 1 cent below? |
| jfra | that triggered the trade? |
| TraderMike | the one before |
| makinconfetti | you mean your 12 readers have other jobs besides trading ? |
| jfra | thanks.. |
| james | monday night is my night off |
| CMaoxian | sorry, IE crashed (surprise!) |
| chud | IE???????? |
| makinconfetti | TM, how many hours do you put in ? |
| CMaoxian | the last question i saw was: where was the stop in SBUX, and the answer is below the bar you entered above |
| TraderMike | yeah, IE? WTF? |
| CMaoxian | yes, sadly i use IE for the chat |
| chud | shame |
| CMaoxian | i don't have java on my Firefox |
| TraderMike | for exact numbers I entered SBUX at 53.24 and stopped out at 52.91 |
| CMaoxian | i have the slim and trim version |
| trader | Can you short on the third bar based on some indicators/ |
| CMaoxian | none that i know of, trader |
| Eyal | hi everyone |
| CMaoxian | hey eyal |
| jfra | TM, the chart shows an entry above that # |
| TraderMike | sup eyal |
| jfra | the top shadow on the 1 green top |
| test | hi all like to know how you guys were to play BOOM today thanks |
| Eyal | good, busy as a bee, the new time of the chat allows me to sneak in :) |
| CMaoxian | yes mike, i'm showing 53.73 as the high of that bar |
| makinconfetti | TraderMike, how many hours per day do you estimate that you put in in a typical trading day ? |
| james | didnt BOOM wake up in the afternoon? |
| chud | i've thought about putting my buy stops a bit above 1 cent above the entry bar. it seems quite a few of my entry stops get hit and then the price goes right back down and stops me out. that would have kept me out of sbux. |
| CMaoxian | test, once we're finished featuring mike's trades we may have a chance to look at BOOM |
| TraderMike | must be differences in our charts again... lemme fire up eSignal |
| CMaoxian | sure chud, use a nickel instead |
| jfra | I don't touch anything until 10:45 |
| TraderMike | makin -- probably 9 or so |
| CMaoxian | maybe it's a Brazilian Beauty issue |
| makinconfetti | ok, thx |
| test | oh i'm sorry |
| CMaoxian | next is SERO |
| CMaoxian |  |
| chud | i went to an esignal "free" seminar a few weeks ago and had to pay $6 for parking. and they just tried to sell me some $3000 weekend class. |
| TraderMike | ugh |
| jfra | ..lol.. |
| TraderMike | they keep spamming me about those damn seminars |
| Eyal | eSignal and free should not appear in the same sentence ;) |
| CMaoxian | did they serve rubber chicken, chud? |
| makinconfetti | TraderMike, do you have a long term portfolio that you do not actively trade ? |
| chud | no food even. just sodas and coffee. |
| TraderMike | yeah, I do |
| TraderMike | or at least that's the plan |
| makinconfetti | I see |
| eDave | I'm sorry to be a novice here, but what is meant by an "inside" bar? |
| CMaoxian | with SERO you can see that the inside bar is also narrow range (the little blue seven means it's an NR7 bar) |
| jfra | what is significance of 7? |
| TraderMike | inside means its range is entirely within the previous bar's range |
| CMaoxian | hi eDave, inside means the high is lower than the high of the previous bar and the low is higher than the previous bar |
| eDave | ah, thanks! |
| CMaoxian | it's an old toby crabel thing, jfra |
| makinconfetti | "inside" bar = where all the cool people hang out when they imbibe |
| jfra | ..thanks.. |
| eDave | hehe |
| james | lol |
| Eyal | CM: I think u mentioned before u use higher/lower OR equal to..? |
| CMaoxian | what was the reward to risk on this one, mike? |
| CMaoxian | yes eyal, i use equal to for my inside bars which is fudging it |
| TraderMike | 3R |
| jfra | 3R? |
| CMaoxian | 3 times the initial risk |
| chud | did you hold this to the close or move your stop and get taken out after that push to 24? |
| TraderMike | and that was only because I sold half on that spike |
| jfra | ..thnks. |
| CMaoxian | selling half on that spike was sweet (and lucky) |
| TraderMike | it was all skill, I always set an alert to sell half up 3 or 4 % from entry |
| TraderMike | :-) |
| Jim | a silly question: after the insider bar, price can go down and up, how to decide to go long or short? |
| chud | jim: go with the trend |
| CMaoxian | because it trades ABOVE the bar |
| CMaoxian | trades THRU the high you see |
| makinconfetti | CM and TraderMike, do you buy mid caps, big caps or small caps for your long term portfolios, or combinations thereof ? |
| jfra | TM & CM, I don't see how you can establish risk/reward when target is so unknown... |
| CMaoxian | i don't care about the market cap of the companies i'm interested in buying, makin |
| TraderMike | same here but I tend to not mess with Big caps |
| keke | CM is your long term account mainly fundamentals? |
| CMaoxian | yes, keke |
| chud | reward is not known before the trade but is potentially infinite |
| CMaoxian | jfra you concentrate first on minimizing your initial risk |
| jellyfish | wow, what a lousy day for me |
| james | i got stung by a jellyfish at topsail last week - hurt like hell - and left about 15 tiny bruises on my arm |
| makinconfetti | CM, do you try and buy stocks for the LT portfolio that pay dividends ? or is that not importnat to you ? |
| keke | CM, what do you think of GME |
| trader | Do you use 1 minute chart to confirm the trade on 15 minute chart? |
| TraderMike | trader -- no, I don't |
| chud | i got stung by one in costa rica last week |
| jellyfish | i have been a dummy dummy dummy trader recently |
| keke | Fundies |
| jfra | yup, but how many times will you get that 3X risk...could leave mucho $ on table waiting for it.. |
| jfra | ..I know I have.. |
| jfra | ;-( |
| CMaoxian | most of my long term positions are dividend payers, yes ... basically everything outside of my once-glorious-now-busted-ass-tech portfolio |
| TraderMike | jfra, you never know... that's why I use trailing stops and sell half when I can |
| jfra | ..makes sense.. |
| Eyal | TraderMike: how do u trail? |
| Jim | the third 7 was followed with a red drop bar. |
| Isasia1 | hi everyone |
| CMaoxian | i usually have a target in mind jfra, but it's just a guess |
| TFletch3 | CMaox and TraderMike -- i want to thank you both for all your hard work on your blogs -- i have learned a great deal and visit them both on a daily basis. Many thanks |
| CMaoxian | hi asia |
| jellyfish | cm, you go in on inside or down bars right? |
| makinconfetti | agreed TFletch |
| TraderMike | I push the stop to breakeven after I have a 1R profit and then just keep pushing it little by little... it's really gut feel after that |
| chud | yep jelly |
| jellyfish | on 15 minute or 30 minute bars? |
| CMaoxian | you're welcome fletch, now hit the donate button ;-) |
| chud | 15min jelly |
| jamgar | agreed Tfletch |
| TraderMike | Fletch, you're very welcome |
| CMaoxian | for longs jelly, yes, above inside or down bars |
| makinconfetti | Fletch always had probs making alimony payments as i recall |
| jellyfish | do u engage in premarket? |
| CMaoxian | only if she's willing, jelly |
| TraderMike | never Jelly |
| keke | TM what stocks were you watching today with this 'dummy trade' criteria |
| jellyfish | why above? for confirmation? |
| CMaoxian | yes, jelly |
| chud | you always wait till up 3% to sell half Mike? |
| Eyal | TM: right, I usually don't raise to BE on 1R, I found it sets the stop at an arbitrary level from the technical perspective. I'm still playing around with different trailing methods |
| Jim | CM, could you elaborate the condition to enter a trade? |
| Isasia1 | hi cm and trader mike , ive been using some of your principles to daytrade currencies for the last 5 weeks |
| Zoomie | keke, they were on his site today |
| makinconfetti | Chud, you experience any slippage lately ? |
| jellyfish | when you trade? starting 9:30? |
| CMaoxian | thats when i start watching, jelly |
| CMaoxian | Jim, let's look at the next one |
| TraderMike | Eyal, I am too... I recently added a rule that I can't touch my stop until an hour after entry b/c I kept cutting my winners short by moving my stops too soon. that rule has worked wonders |
| TFletch3 | Makin-- LOL |
| makinconfetti | well, duty calls. Good bye everyone. Thanks for all the valuable insight and good humor. |
| jellyfish | in your previous life, did you work in the brokerage business? any professional insights ? |
| CMaoxian | no jelly, i have never been a used-stock salesman |
| CMaoxian |  |
| Jim | thanks, CM |
| CMaoxian | Ceradyne was a big pop, good volume, must have been earnings yet again, yes? |
| TraderMike | jelly, I don't make any trades until after 10:15 |
| Eyal | TM: sounds like a good rule.. |
| TraderMike | I guess so... who knows? ;-) |
| jellyfish | no, i mean do you have insights on how the big boys look at the tape |
| CMaoxian | no jelly |
| CMaoxian | we wait till the third bar after 10 AM, or in mike's case the fourth bar, 10:15 AM, jim |
| Eyal | I wait for the fourth as well |
| james | TM - do you enter trades after 11:45? |
| TraderMike | thanks Eyal, I just changed that rule from 10:00 after getting chopped the f&%$ up the other day after entering some trades into a 10:00 head-fake |
| TraderMike | sometimes James |
| keke | TM how much is ur DT account up since inception, if u dont want to answer..dont |
| CMaoxian | the third bar is a down bar, jim |
| Eyal | TM: sounds familiar :) |
| TraderMike | I try not to do much between 12 and 1:30 but if a good suspect comes along I may try it |
| CMaoxian | so we're looking to enter above it with our protective stop beneath it |
| Isasia1 | has worked out pretty well |
| Eyal | TM: do u enter after 12pm? |
| CMaoxian | the fourth bar traded oh so slightly above and mike got filled, are you following me, jim? |
| TraderMike | Keke, with inception being in June, when I started daytrading -- about 15% |
| jellyfish | june of this year? |
| chud | TM: that's awesome |
| TraderMike | yes Jelly |
| jfra | TM, u should wait for 15 min closes..those doji can kill.. |
| CMaoxian | 14% of it came last Thursday ;-) |
| keke | TM thats very solid |
| TraderMike | it sure did! :-) |
| james | that was a good day |
| test | so mike got stopped out? |
| Jim | CM, from what i see, the fourth bar is inside bar |
| CMaoxian | no, it's an up bar jim, high > prev high |
| CMaoxian | then the 5th bar was the crunch bar, jim, and the stop was hit |
| Isasia1 | roughly how many trades do you think u made in that period trader mike ? |
| TraderMike | I should have been up much more but I kept killing myself with those aggressive stop movements |
| jellyfish | chairman, are you as an avid candlestick reader as tm, it seems like your mantra doesn't really take into accoutn the different candles stick patterns |
| TraderMike | roughly 158 |
| keke | TM what do you do premarket? |
| Isasia1 | hahha |
| CMaoxian | jelly, you don't want to get too crazy interpreting candlesticks on these small time frames |
| Jim | CM, oh , yes |
| jellyfish | agreed |
| TraderMike | in the premarket I read my rules & go over my game plan |
| Isasia1 | you kind of inspired me to give daytrading another go |
| keke | so you do that until 10:15 |
| Isasia1 | having not done it for a few years |
| CMaoxian | hey max |
| Isasia1 | in currencies.. |
| TraderMike | and read Breifing.com & make a watchlist |
| Isasia1 | started again on 1st july |
| keke | what do you guys watch during trading, CNBC, nothing or bloomberg? |
| maximus | hi chairman |
| maximus | hi everyone |
| pedro | bloomberg |
| CMaoxian | so this was another losing trade, but a very tight stop made the loss small |
| chud | have you started using trade-ideas mike? i see their ads on your site. |
| CMaoxian | nothing, keke |
| jfra | Isasia, u trade futures or pairs? |
| james | santelli should have his own network |
| Eyal | keke: nothing as well |
| CMaoxian | i wouldn't watch CNBC if someone held a gun to my head |
| TraderMike | I turn the TV off... too busy watching the monitiors |
| Isasia1 | pairs |
| Isasia1 | spreadbet |
| jellyfish | i haven't been using stops, which is why my trades are disasters |
| Isasia1 | i dont like the futures |
| test | so the stop is below the low of the fourth bar right? |
| jfra | ..thanks..no problem with firm running stops? |
| Isasia1 | as i do hold overnight positions from time to time |
| keke | TM do you like this lifestyle more than your swing trading? |
| CMaoxian | yes jelly, you must *always* place a stop the *second* you get filled |
| Isasia1 | also i like the freedom of entering/exiting 24 hrs a day |
| jellyfish | what's the biggest risk you are willing to take |
| brett | TM DO U JUST TRADE GAPS |
| CMaoxian | is it clearer now, jim? |
| jfra | ..thanks.. |
| test | sounds like the prestine stop method is there any other alternatives? |
| jellyfish | when placing stops, 1dollar? |
| jfra | Hey TM/CM what ratio daily is your stopped out rate? |
| Isasia1 | jfra u trading ccys? |
| TraderMike | Keke, yes, i do. It's much more flexible |
| CMaoxian | this next trade was a nice one because STRA ran all day |
| CMaoxian |  |
| jfra | ccys? |
| Isasia1 | currencies |
| jfra | ..lol. I guess that answers that one.. |
| jfra | no.. |
| Isasia1 | haha true |
| Isasia1 | say no more |
| keke | so would you go long with the blue candle's low? |
| Isasia1 | a lot less popular in the usa i guess |
| CMaoxian | no, go long ABOVE the inside bar |
| sally | what does inside bar mean? |
| brett | TM DO U ONLY TRADE GAPS |
| CMaoxian | the stop goes below the low |
| test | what does 7 on the graph mean |
| chud | test: narrowest range of last 7 bars |
| chud | sally: range inside prev. bar |
| CMaoxian | thx chud |
| keke | CM who do you use for your charts? |
| TraderMike | jfra, I'm at a 45% win ratio right now. |
| jfra | ..significance of 7? |
| chud | keke: quote.com |
| jfra | I see.. |
| CMaoxian | jfra my win ratio is below 45% |
| sally | cm, do you trade prior to 10:30? |
| test | yeah i'm wondering the same |
| nick | NR7 |
| Isasia1 | TraderMike I'd like your opinion on the following results |
| CMaoxian | yes, sally |
| TraderMike | ok |
| test | go above the nr7 and trail stop below nr7? |
| CMaoxian | mike did you enter above the third bar here or the fifth? |
| Isasia1 | 124 trades |
| james | STRA would've been extremely hard for me to get in - i like to see some kind of reaction.........i.e. i hate chasing |
| Isasia1 | 54 % win ratio |
| chud | cm: the chat's getting popular. maybe time for a chat FAQ |
| CMaoxian | it's just the new time, chud |
| CMaoxian | or below the most recentl swing low, test |
| Eyal | did u guys cover earlier on how to identify candidates? |
| Isasia1 | 1.45 win/loss ratio |
| Isasia1 | expectancy |
| keke | yeah 30 users is very good CM |
| CMaoxian | i need to see 200 |
| test | i'm a first timer and i want to be a dummy |
| Isasia1 | 246 dollars per trade |
| chud | and it'd be nice if adsense had a refreshing ad based on the chat module. you'd make millions |
| nick | so where was the entry? on 3rd bar? |
| TraderMike | I entered above the 3rd bar |
| nick | tx |
| Isasia1 | im a little concerned by 1.45 |
| Isasia1 | avg winner/avg loser ratio |
| Isasia1 | seems a little low |
| TraderMike | Iasia, sounds damn good to me |
| jellyfish | tm, what are your ususal trade volume? thousands, hundreds? |
| nvdog | 30 users is good but some of us are shills |
| jfra | ..lol. |
| Isasia1 | ok then i havnt been trading it long enough |
| james | an honest shill |
| CMaoxian | that's prolly possible chud, but i'm technically incompetent |
| james | well i'll be |
| Isasia1 | probably need more data |
| CMaoxian | jim, do you understand the entry on this STRA chart? |
| Isasia1 | im used to having a sub 50% hit ratio |
| Isasia1 | but a higher avg winner/avg loser |
| test | so what's the significance of nr7 and why 7? |
| nick | would be nice if we ALL focus on Mikes trades |
| jfra | yes, y? |
| CMaoxian | ask toby crabel, test |
| Isasia1 | so long term i wud expect my winning pctage to go lower |
| chud | test: narrowest range in last 7 bars |
| jellyfish | chairman, how do you distinguish those that will run all day vs those that will drop after a pop? |
| CMaoxian | no way to know, jelly |
| Zoomie | narrowest range in price of last 7 previous bars |
| TraderMike | good old hindsight |
| jellyfish | that's the million dollar question |
| TraderMike | brb... |
| jellyfish | who ever can answer that will be rich |
| jellyfish | richer than chairman |
| CMaoxian | next up CYTC |
| CMaoxian |  |
| Isasia1 | cmao ., not sure if u remember us talking abt the dollar a few week back but looks like it did top out |
| james | the whole point of the dummy entry's is the low risk - and more importantly - a PLAN |
| Jim | CM do u use other indicators as entry conditions, or just looking for insider bar ? |
| CMaoxian | yes asia, i remember well and i was hoping you'd come back so i could congratulate you on your guesswork ;-) |
| Isasia1 | lol |
| jfra | ..I find this pattern to be a huge trap and have learned to stay away... |
| chud | i think i may have moved the stop to breakeven after that amount of time. it would hurt to get stopped for a loss after all that time with a profit. |
| jfra | run big, off big..sideways...and crap out.. |
| CMaoxian | inside *and* down bars, jim... i like to see that the pace is high and constant... the liquidity has to be there and not be drying up |
| jellyfish | jfra, you can ident those pattern before they develop, do tell |
| Isasia1 | as napoleon asked when he selected his generals .."is he lucky" |
| jfra | ..jelly, been doing this for awhile...cost me mucho to learn |
| TraderMike | Chud, I did move my stop up a bit. my loss was .58R |
| jfra | this one I got good at reading.. |
| test | what does R mean? |
| jellyfish | well, jfra, and cm, can you guys look at NIHD today? |
| chud | R=Risk |
| edge | CYTC is a good stock to short in the short term |
| CMaoxian | i'll take 19 cent (0.7%) losses all day long, thank you! |
| CMaoxian | one more chart to review first, jelly |
| TraderMike | R is my initial risk -- where my initial stop was set |
| Jim | CM, inside and down bars, I do not get the down bar as an entry condition |
| CMaoxian | enter above the down bar, jim |
| chud | jim: a down bar in an uptrend |
| eDave | CM, are the "dummy" rules outlined somewhere? Sorry if I missed that... |
| CMaoxian | jim, if price reverses and trades back up thru the down bar's high, you want to be in |
| Isasia1 | anybody looking at/trading the gold stocks at the moment ? |
| chud | eDave: Trading for Dummies |
| james | not me asia |
| CMaoxian | eDave, i wrote 95 separate lessons back in the day |
| james | catchin a bid? |
| nick | CM - DO u change position size based on risk? |
| Eyal | gotta rush |
| CMaoxian | mike, did you move the stop up here because it was going sideways and narrow thru lunch? |
| eDave | Thx, I'll read them all! |
| Isasia1 | v slowly yes |
| Eyal | nice being here for a while |
| CMaoxian | yes, nick |
| jellyfish | someone slap me cause I violated the number 1 dummy trading rule, no stops |
| Eyal | see u next time |
| Zoomie | CM, do you think you would still use 30 min bars? |
| Eyal | ciao everyone |
| CMaoxian | thx for coming by, eyal |
| Isasia1 | but gold and silver breaking out to topside |
| TraderMike | Slap! |
| Zoomie | will, in the future? |
| CMaoxian | i'll always be looking at both time frames for spots, zoomie |
| Isasia1 | the stocks should follow soon |
| jellyfish | yes, i will , i am so stupid |
| james | not really surprised seeing how the 2-30 are all in the 4% range |
| nick | if you have a chance... talk about position sizing vs risk |
| jellyfish | but i am so frustrated by my own incompetence, stupidity |
| CMaoxian | jelly, everyone trades with no stops at first, gets killed, and learns pretty quick that you always have to have a stop |
| Isasia1 | everyone except michael steinhardt |
| chud | nick: some good articles on position sizing at www.tradermike.net |
| jfra | ..you guys base stop off of Candles or % loss? |
| jellyfish | do you go back into a trade after you get stopped out? i guess it depends, no rules set in stone |
| CMaoxian | nick, i always like to think about dollar size losses, so i know i'm risking $250 or $500 or $1000 etc. which represents a fraction of a percentage of the account |
| TraderMike | mine are based off of a support point on the chart |
| nick | tx chud - read them already... curious what CM does |
| jfra | thanks.. |
| james | hey TM - i just got my first issue of Trader Monthly from the link you posted months ago - that is one of the shallowest mags i've ever seen - not blaming you - i figured it would be like that - but wanted to see first hand |
| TraderMike | sounds like he and I both use the percent risk position sizing model |
| jellyfish | TM, how many shares to you trade? |
| nick | similar to Tharp % risk? |
| TraderMike | LMAO James |
| james | what do you think - 3 years they'll be in business? |
| CMaoxian | it also depends on how easily i think i can get filled, nick, i will reduce the posish size if i think it'll be difficult to get a quick fill (this is especially true for the cheapies) |
| CMaoxian | i've never read Tharp, nick. |
| TraderMike | Jelly, the number of shares is determined by where my stop is |
| sally | cm, do you still use 30 min or 15 min bars? |
| Jim | CM, entering a long trade after a down bar, does not seem to have a bigger winning chances than just entering a long on any bar |
| chud | sally: 15 min. |
| CMaoxian | yes, that's probably true jim, but you have to have some method, no matter how cockamamie |
| pedro | thanks cm & tm, catch you later |
| nick | tx CM |
| jellyfish | jim, it's about reducing risk |
| TraderMike | If I want to risk $100 and I have a 25 cent stop, then I trade 400 shares |
| Miggs | Thanks CM and TM - I like the new time and topic! |
| CMaoxian | i look at both 15- and 30-min, sally |
| jellyfish | maybe the chances are same but the risks are different |
| jfra | TM, I've noticed quite a lot of clean out stops and back to original move..seems like with low volume, that big boys & pumper/dumpers are playing games. |
| Jim | CM, You do not look at volume? |
| CMaoxian | i look at trading activity, jim |
| nick | do u guys enter with limit or limit2market orders? |
| Jim | with ameritrade, you can get most active ones, and volume movers |
| Jim | by real time screener |
| CMaoxian | here's the last chart i have to feature, a beauty: |
| CMaoxian |  |
| TraderMike | yeah jfra, games will be played |
| jellyfish | jim, do you have ameritrade? |
| Jim | Jellyfish, yes, i have |
| jfra | CM, this one is better than your Friday babes.. |
| TraderMike | nick, I almost never use limit orders |
| scoot | nice! |
| CMaoxian | it depends on the situation, nick, but i usually try to stop limit in... my protective stop is always a pure stop order |
| nick | tx mike and CM |
| jellyfish | i find that ameritrade sucks for day trading, i suggest you switch to etrade |
| TraderMike | CM has to do that b/c he's trading 10K shares at a time |
| CMaoxian | mike you have me confused with the 10,987% Monk |
| james | lol |
| james | he never posted those "audited" results |
| james | i would've been praying to hold out to the 5th bar after the "tight inside bar" |
| TraderMike | try CyberTrader |
| Jim | Jellyfish, do u mean excution speed is slower? |
| CMaoxian | mike, with NIHD was it the down bar or the inside bar you executed against? |
| keke | Mike how many shares were you playing on NIHD? |
| eDave | TM, is that StreetSmart Pro? |
| jellyfish | right, cyber probably better than etrade, but etrade definitely better than ameritrade |
| chud | cm: do you have a way in IB to leave for the day with a stop loss and MOC order in without risking being stopped out and then your position reversed by the MOC? |
| maximus | is the monk still around and blogging? |
| TraderMike | CM, it was the 10:15 candle |
| james | no max |
| TraderMike | almost got stopped out |
| maximus | he should be billionare by now |
| maximus | why what happend? |
| james | lmao |
| TraderMike | keke, I had 200 shares |
| jellyfish | well, i think that day trading in the long run is not healthy for the pocket book |
| CMaoxian | i closed them out manually, chud ... but i think they have one-cancels-the-other capability so you don't have to fear that |
| james | dont know - dont really care - could never understand where his fib studies ended and began |
| jfra | ..hmm, you guys trade higher priced stocks than me.. |
| james | he had about 15 of em on every chart........but i digress |
| maximus | high price stocks get better results |
| chud | jfra: you think price matters? |
| jfra | ..yes.. |
| maximus | precent matters |
| TraderMike | Jfra, I love higher priced stocks... that's something I wanted to talk about tonight |
| jellyfish | i have come to that conclusion after having some horrendous loses, because of no discipline and no system and no stops, so dont make my mistake people |
| jfra | ..floors yours.. |
| james | me too mike |
| jfra | actually, CM's da m/c |
| CMaoxian | we're dual MC's but that's only because mike sent me a 60gig iPod |
| chud | jellyfish: requires lots of discipline. i think you get better with practice. |
| jellyfish | chairman, where do you think the broader market is headed from here, up/down or sideways? |
| TraderMike | given the same stop, I'll take a higher priced stock any day b/c it allows me to put more money to work |
| james | same here |
| jellyfish | but higher priced stocks usually have wider swings |
| jellyfish | and get stopped out more easily |
| TraderMike | if I can get 400 shares of a $50 stock vs 400 shares of a $10 stock, I can catch a smaller % move and make more money |
| chud | yea but the same stop on a high price stop is also more likely to stop you out |
| james | not in terms of % |
| jellyfish | agreed chud |
| jellyfish | STRA probably had 1.5 dollar swings during the day |
| jfra | TM, the $'s invested have to be considered..no? |
| james | but - your trading a smaller amount of shares |
| jellyfish | so entry is really important |
| TraderMike | but if your stop is under a logical support point the risk of being stopped out should be the same |
| CMaoxian | if you're patient you can get an entry in GOOG with a $1 stop ;-) |
| eDave | isn't the idea though that you can buy more shares of a lower priced stock? |
| TraderMike | like I did the other day witjh GOOG - My Trade in Google |
| james | so a 30 cent loss on a 20$ stock is much more than a 30 cent loss on a 60$ stock - considering your using the same $ amount in both trades |
| chud | even with stops under entry bars i would think the risk of being stopped out .25 cents on goog is higher than siri. |
| eDave | usually...at least for someone starting out with less $$ to work with |
| JohnD | TM/CM -how important to you is the overall market direction? |
| JohnD | Will you go long if the major indexs are tanking? |
| TraderMike | but I don't use the same amount of money in both cases, I keep my maximum $ loss the same in both cases |
| jellyfish | depends on the stock |
| TraderMike | John -- no way |
| CMaoxian | it's very important JohnD, i look at the tone of the market very closely |
| maximus | anyone long on SIRI |
| maximus | ? |
| jfra | me neither |
| jfra | mkt direction is key for me |
| JohnD | Thx |
| eDave | TM, there was a comment to your watchlist today about FORD hitting IBD #1 and that it could possibly be bad. Is it pretty much too late once a stock hits IBD? |
| chud | TM: you never split up longs & shorts on the same day if market is not strong either way? |
| james | SIRI is for the tradebot guys |
| sally | how do you measure the sentiment? looking at dow and nas? |
| CMaoxian | that's part of the reason i won't trade before 10AM because i need to watch the tape closely for the first 30 mins to judge the tone |
| jellyfish | i disagree, some stocks defy the market, but it would need to be strong stock |
| TraderMike | chud, not if I can help it. hopefully I'd stay in cash all day |
| jellyfish | GOOG was on the way up |
| jellyfish | it defied gravity, market what ever else, |
| CMaoxian | i look at the market breadth, sally... |
| chud | eDave: hitting ibd 100 doesn't necessarily mean the end |
| brett | TM DID GOOG FORM AN INSIDE CANDLE TODAY |
| jfra | ..as long as Cramer was hawking it after close ;-) |
| TraderMike | Jelly, that's very true, but I just like to go with the tide |
| Zoomie | did you trade today TM? |
| jellyfish | right, |
| TraderMike | Brett, it sure did |
| jellyfish | however, lately the market has been making late rallies, except when i am in |
| brett | TY |
| jfra | ALTI |
| jellyfish | don't you hate that, it goes up on the days when you are not in the market |
| jellyfish | that's my experience |
| TraderMike | yes, Zoomie.. I had some longs but bailed on them after 1:00 when the indices started rolling over & oil was hitting highs |
| jellyfish | alti? what is it at now? |
| jfra | 3.25 |
| jellyfish | can't tell if it's a scam or not |
| jellyfish | maybe not scam but overhyped nano bs |
| brett | TM DO YOU HAV A FAVORITES WATCHLIST U PLAY OR DO U JUST PLAY GAPS |
| jfra | ..yup, but I go by charts.. |
| chud | chairman, how many dummy traders do you estimate there are now? |
| james | oh lord - i'm with another local daytrader during the day - he cant stay way from those stocks under $5 - but ironically pays his bills on huge swing trades that take months |
| james | LWAY is one he's got a double on |
| chud | wondering when i can try some dummy soup |
| jfra | ..is that u james?...lol |
| james | not anymore |
| CMaoxian | thousands chud, and i ain't made a dime off of any of 'em ;-) |
| TraderMike | Brett, WHY ARE YOU YELLING? I just watch whatever's on my scan of the biggest % movers |
| brett | LOL SORRY |
| CMaoxian | we'll wrap up at 9:30 |
| jellyfish | okay, cm, how's life in beijing? |
| jfra | ..Friday photo's CM? |
| CMaoxian | any questions specific to mike's trades since he's here to answer 'em? |
| CMaoxian | life is good, jelly |
| chud | chairman, can you give any information on how the ETF table is compiled? or is that proprietary(TM)? |
| Jim | CM, I got it, a go-above the down bar is needed in order to enter a long trade. Thanks |
| CMaoxian | i've stopped the friday photo, jfra, due to pressure from the Feminist Blogger Brigade |
| jellyfish | good for you, it must be hotter than a devil's crotch |
| jfra | ..lol.. |
| jellyfish | in beijing right now? |
| CMaoxian | it's proprietary, chud, as usual |
| james | lmfao CM |
| TraderMike | lol |
| chud | dont give in to those femmys. tell em "get their biscuits in the oven and their buns in the bed" |
| CMaoxian | it's hot here, yes |
| brett | tm what do use more 15min or 30 |
| TraderMike | 15 |
| jellyfish | do you like chinese yogurt, the kind that comes in a thick glass jar |
| Jim | CM, I am from Beijing |
| brett | what is more reliable or comfortable for u |
| sally | do you use 10 min as a warning to 15, tm? |
| james | ok CM thanks for havin the chat on my night off - TM - thanks for letting us dissect your trades |
| james | i'm out |
| brett | ty |
| TraderMike | no Sally, I just look at the 15 |
| CMaoxian | no jelly, i have cereal in the morning with a banana just as i always have |
| CMaoxian | Jim, where are you now? |
| JohnD | TM - now that August is here any swing trades in the works? Or ya sticking to days only? |
| nvdog | always with the banana |
| jfra | what do you guys think of the low volatility? |
| Jim | CM I am now in Texas |
| chud | cm: you like kinky friedman? |
| jellyfish | where did you say you live in beijing, which ring road are you close to |
| CMaoxian | I'm on Guanghua Lu just outside the third ring road |
| test | ok CM and mike now could you comment on BOOM today |
| TraderMike | no swing trades for me. I'll post some picks if & when they pop up though |
| test | 5min and 15min chart |
| sally | tm, what do you use to gauge market sentiment? what specfic indicator? |
| CMaoxian | yes, always with the banana, and i anticipate some smartass is going to send me a salacious stock chat script using that banana reference |
| test | good buy would be above 42 today too bad i missed it |
| chud | sally: earlier he said tick, trin, a/d, and nas |
| CMaoxian | chud, i enjoy the kinkster but i have to be in the right mood for him |
| sally | thanks chud |
| nvdog | along with engaging in premarket activity Cmao |
| scoot | see you next time. thx cm and tm |
| jellyfish | cm, do you look at any of that during the day? the tick, trin, etc |
| TraderMike | BOOM would have been tough today... kinda choppy |
| CMaoxian | Jim, Beijing has changed so much you might not even recognize it |
| Jim | CM, I went back to beijing in 2002 |
| TraderMike | the market choppiness didn't help |
| JC | TM - do you believe that higher priced stocks tend to hold better in the close (on a trend day) than cheap stocks? |
| CMaoxian | yes jelly, i look at TICK and TRIN and once again some proprietary measures of market breadth |
| Jim | CM, so I can still find my way home |
| chud | cm: you dont care much for raymond chandler? i notice he is absent from most of your mystery writers lists. |
| TraderMike | JC, I don't know.. never thought about that. I doubt there's any difference |
| CMaoxian | i like chandler |
| chud | and ross macdonald |
| test | no comments on BOOM guys? |
| CMaoxian | i like some of ross macdonald but not all |
| jellyfish | asf was good today |
| TraderMike | I made a comment on BOOM a few minutes ago |
| CMaoxian | lemme look at BOOM fast |
| JC | I think the cheaps have more of a daytrader (close at EOD) following and are more likely to sell off going into last half hour. |
| Jim | CM, I heard the internet connection might not be good/fast enough to trade US market in China, do you day trade US market in beijing ? |
| jellyfish | i totally agree JC |
| CMaoxian | not yet, jim, but it's plenty fast |
| CMaoxian | i used to use the phone broker to trade in the early 90s so everything seems fast to me now |
| test | thanks CM |
| chud | dialup is plenty fast for dummy trading |
| CMaoxian | BOOM looks like chop hell, def. not an unusual suspect |
| CMaoxian | wouldn't come up on any scan |
| nvdog | peace, out... |
| Jim | CM, phone broker for day trading ? |
| jfra | CM/TM thanks much guys.... |
| TraderMike | u r welcome |
| chud | darvas used telegraphs |
| CMaoxian | yes jim, those were desperate times, lol. we had Telescan real-time charts and the phone broker at Waterhouse -- those were the dark days |
| test | didn't see it mike sorry |
| CMaoxian | well thanks to everyone for coming by tonight |
| jellyfish | later CM |
| CMaoxian | i guess this Monday time is much better than the Sunday time |
| Jim | Thanks CM TM |
| TraderMike | thanks for having us CM |
| jellyfish | long live the revolution |
| TraderMike | yes, Monday is much better |
| brett | lol |
| chud | thanks for the chat Chairman |
| Zoomie | TY, my wife is in possible labor, so I think I should go... |
| brett | thnks guys |
| chud | and thanks for your input Mike |
| jellyfish | what do you think of the bourgeois capitalist pigs in beijing? |
| TraderMike | welcome chud |
| CMaoxian | thanks for sharing your trades, mike, it's unusual, no, downright abnormal to see someone sharing his trades |
| TraderMike | is it? |
| TraderMike | no problem |
| CMaoxian | good luck, zoomie, remember the breathing stuff |
| JohnD | Yes.. Thanks. Very helpful and informative. |
| Zoomie | lol |
| Zoomie | ty |
| CMaoxian | because you're gonna be in some pain too ;-) |
| Jim | Thanks again |
| Zoomie | ROTFLMAO |
| chud | best wishes for baby and mom Zoomie |
| jellyfish | gl everyone |
| Zoomie | see you all, thanks TM |
| jellyfish | later cm |
| chud | you trading fulltime now jelly? |
| CMaoxian | remember to read through the transcript in case you missed anything |
| jellyfish | pretty much |
| jellyfish | and regreting it |
| Jim | OK, CM |
| Jim | I will read |
| Jim | when will the transcript be available? |
| chud | i'm not the one to give advice. but i have noticed my discipline is getting better as i keep trading. |
| CMaoxian | tomorrow your time, jim |
| Jim | cool |
| Jim | thanks a lot |
| chud | i used to move my stops in hopes of not being stopped out. i'm better at that now. |
| JC | Jelly - How long have u been trading? |
| jellyfish | yes, chud, thanks, i had the opportunity to place stops, but just didn't, nobody to blame but myself |
| CMaoxian | good night! |
| jellyfish | bye everyone |
Previous Entry >>> Top Forming in Crude? XLE Finds Sellers?
© 2000 - 2005
Chairman MaoXian
Chairman MaoXian